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#253099 - 02/04/2005 02:02 Re: Here I go again [Re: kayakjazz]
wfaulk
carpal tunnel

Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
At the same time, most agnostics tend to live their lives as atheists, since it seems silly to rely on something that you cannot define.
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Bitt Faulk

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#253100 - 02/04/2005 12:24 Re: Here I go again [Re: kayakjazz]
JeffS
carpal tunnel

Registered: 14/01/2002
Posts: 2858
Loc: Atlanta, GA
Quote:
Makes sense to me that the finite mind isn't wired to comprehend the infinite
No, I'd agree that it isn't. However, when talking about an agnostic we are not talking about comprehension but rather apprehension.

It is one thing to believe you can know there is I a God (I do) and quite another to say you can comprehend His nature (I don't, though I feel I understand bits and pieces)

There are tons of things in this world that I don’t understand and much that is beyond my comprehension, but that doesn’t mean I don’t believe in those things or refuse to interact with them.
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-Jeff
Rome did not create a great empire by having meetings; they did it by killing all those who opposed them.

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#253101 - 02/04/2005 17:52 Re: Here I go again [Re: JeffS]
tanstaafl.
carpal tunnel

Registered: 08/07/1999
Posts: 5549
Loc: Ajijic, Mexico
There are tons of things in this world that I don’t understand and much that is beyond my comprehension, but that doesn’t mean I don’t believe in those things or refuse to interact with them.


Ah, but there's the rub! Many people (not you, Jeff!) take the point of view that "...if I can't explain it, then that's proof that God exists." and no amount of intelligent reasoning will dissuade them from this path of rather circular logic.

My agnosticism takes the form of "...I just don't have enough information to make a properly informed decision one way or the other, so I will withhold judgment."

tanstaafl.
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"There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch"

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#253102 - 02/04/2005 23:05 Re: Here I go again [Re: JeffS]
mcomb
pooh-bah

Registered: 31/08/1999
Posts: 1649
Loc: San Carlos, CA
Quote:
One of the most immediate illustrations has been my wife’s physical battles.

It is remarkable to me that you find faith in your wife's situation which to me would serve as sufficient argument against the existence of God, or at least a God that cares about me. I find it hard to reconcile the viewpoint that the good things in life prove out the existence of God, but the bad things don't decrease the likelihood of his existence.

-Mike
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EmpMenuX - ext3 filesystem - Empeg iTunes integration

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#253103 - 03/04/2005 05:40 Re: Here I go again [Re: tfabris]
tahir
pooh-bah

Registered: 27/02/2004
Posts: 1919
Loc: London
Quote:
A question that can be equally posed to theists, by the way.


Exactly, my point is that neither position is of itself any more rational than the other, whatever those rational atheists would have us believe.

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#253104 - 03/04/2005 16:06 Re: Here I go again [Re: tahir]
tfabris
carpal tunnel

Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31600
Loc: Seattle, WA
Quote:
Exactly, my point is that neither position is of itself any more rational than the other, whatever those rational atheists would have us believe.

Only with regard to the question about the initial origin of the universe itself.

With regard to other, more tangible questions such as the origins of the species on this planet, continuing to insist on a Creator in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary is the more irrational of the two viewpoints.
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Tony Fabris

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#253105 - 03/04/2005 17:07 Re: Here I go again [Re: JeffS]
bonzi
pooh-bah

Registered: 13/09/1999
Posts: 2401
Loc: Croatia
Quote:
Of course you can always say that my faith is just a placebo that produces results because it is the belief that is important, not the substance.

Of course

Quote:
One of the most immediate illustrations has been my wife’s physical battles [...] it was faith that told me it was my job to serve her no matter what the cost to myself; it was faith that told her to trust my judgment for the hard decisions, even when she disagreed.

As I see it, it was your heart that told you to give whatever you can to your wife, and she trusted you because you earned her trust. You are simply good and strong people.

Quote:
I realize that not being in my skin, there’s no way to really understand what this is and has been like.

True, but as you know, I never stop trying

Perhaps (in this respect) we do not differ that much: I say you are good and strong, you say faith or Christ gives you strength and will to do what you know is good; OTOH, perhaps I trivialize your convictions. See 'placebo' above

I wrote more here, but you have immesurably more important things on your mind now. I hope everything will turn out right with the surgery tomorrow. My regards to your brave wife.
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Dragi "Bonzi" Raos Q#5196 MkII #080000376, 18GB green MkIIa #040103247, 60GB blue

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#253106 - 03/04/2005 17:17 Re: Here I go again [Re: tfabris]
bonzi
pooh-bah

Registered: 13/09/1999
Posts: 2401
Loc: Croatia
Quote:
Naw, confirmation bias and pareidolia are two separate things.

Yes, and apophenia is yet another. I particularly like this part:

Quote:
According to Brugger, "The propensity to see connections between seemingly unrelated objects or ideas most closely links psychosis to creativity ... apophenia and creativity may even be seen as two sides of the same coin." Some of the most creative people in the world, then, must be psychoanalysts and therapists who use projective tests like the Rorschach test or who see patterns of child abuse behind every emotional problem. Brugger notes that one analyst thought he had support for the penis envy theory because more females than males failed to return their pencils after a test. Another spent nine pages in a prestigious journal describing how sidewalk cracks are vaginas and feet are penises, and the old saw about not stepping on cracks is actually a warning to stay away from the female sex organ.

Sadly, this lends support to some or our friend's sceptic attitude towards science and its supposedly rational approach. Then again, many of my physicist ex-colleagues would not grant a psychoanalysts the status of scientist if put under torture.
_________________________
Dragi "Bonzi" Raos Q#5196 MkII #080000376, 18GB green MkIIa #040103247, 60GB blue

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#253107 - 03/04/2005 17:39 Re: Here I go again [Re: tfabris]
bonzi
pooh-bah

Registered: 13/09/1999
Posts: 2401
Loc: Croatia
Quote:
Only with regard to the question about the initial origin of the universe itself.

Not even that. Postulating a supernatural being that "started it all" does not contribute one iota to our understanding of the Universe; it is just another way of saying "I don't know". It is just, well, unnecessary; it solves nothing (but, to be fair, it does not hamper our quest for knowledge, either). Besides, only imagination is the limit when inventing such (non-interventionist) creative force; no description is any better than any other. Having no criteria to choose one, it is only logical to choose none, and leave this to the writers of SF novels*. (Kind of Occam's razor reasoning, I suppose...)

*) Scientists do think about this and sometimes choose the format of a novel for their musings. Sagan and Benford come to mind at the moment...
_________________________
Dragi "Bonzi" Raos Q#5196 MkII #080000376, 18GB green MkIIa #040103247, 60GB blue

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#253108 - 03/04/2005 17:56 Re: Here I go again [Re: kayakjazz]
bonzi
pooh-bah

Registered: 13/09/1999
Posts: 2401
Loc: Croatia
Quote:
If we're trying to stick to any semblance of critical thinking, agnostism is the only stance that makes makes objective sense; it makes no more sense to be convinced there is not a supreme intelligence behind it all than that there is, though there's never any dearth of folks cxompletely invested in both.

True, but, as I said in another post, postulating such intelligence is arbitrary and does not answer any question.

However, I think that 'devout atheists' merely (over)react to attempts of 'theists' to regulate our lives according to their numerous mutually exclusive and often hostile obviously subjective (to avoid the term 'arbitrary') convictions.

Historically, of course, 'militant atheism' was also a part of political struggle (partly against various churches a political organizations, and partially to convince 'the masses' that the time and place to improve their conditions in here and now, not in some mythical afterlife).
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Dragi "Bonzi" Raos Q#5196 MkII #080000376, 18GB green MkIIa #040103247, 60GB blue

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#253109 - 04/04/2005 10:38 Re: Here I go again [Re: tfabris]
tahir
pooh-bah

Registered: 27/02/2004
Posts: 1919
Loc: London
Quote:
With regard to other, more tangible questions such as the origins of the species on this planet, continuing to insist on a Creator in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary is the more irrational of the two viewpoints.


Depends how literally you take your chosen text. I'm definitely not a creationist

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#253110 - 05/04/2005 21:52 Re: Here I go again [Re: bonzi]
JeffS
carpal tunnel

Registered: 14/01/2002
Posts: 2858
Loc: Atlanta, GA
Quote:
I hope everything will turn out right with the surgery tomorrow. My regards to your brave wife.
Thanks for the well wishes. It did turn out well, and they think they've fixed the problem. We'll see. As it is she is now laid up in bed, but at home at least.

It was pretty funny actually. They told her she had to do three things before they'd let her go home: use the restroom, walk, and eat without getting nauseous. As soon as she opened her eyes after the surgery she asked for a ham sandwich, got out of bed and walked to the restroom, used it, came back, and ate the whole meal they brought. She was discharged within 45 minutes. I've never seen anything like it. I think she was just going on sheer determination that she wanted to be at home rather than in the hospital. The last time they did one of these, she had to stay overnight and a good portion of the next day. She is very strong indeed!
_________________________
-Jeff
Rome did not create a great empire by having meetings; they did it by killing all those who opposed them.

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#253111 - 05/04/2005 21:57 Re: Here I go again [Re: bonzi]
JeffS
carpal tunnel

Registered: 14/01/2002
Posts: 2858
Loc: Atlanta, GA
Quote:
Sadly, this lends support to some or our friend's sceptic attitude towards science and its supposedly rational approach.
Unfortunately, usually any given philosophy is judged by those who practice it the poorest, as they become the biggest target for the other side. It's amazing how much negative sentiment I hear about Christianity that is really caused by fringe groups who don't represent the mainstream faith at all. And I sit and listen to people rail against "science" and disregarding any of it at all because of examples like you've noted above. I think people like to look at fringe groups because they are easier to knock down than dealing with the real issues.
_________________________
-Jeff
Rome did not create a great empire by having meetings; they did it by killing all those who opposed them.

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#253112 - 05/04/2005 22:20 Re: Here I go again [Re: mcomb]
JeffS
carpal tunnel

Registered: 14/01/2002
Posts: 2858
Loc: Atlanta, GA
Quote:
It is remarkable to me that you find faith in your wife's situation which to me would serve as sufficient argument against the existence of God, or at least a God that cares about me. I find it hard to reconcile the viewpoint that the good things in life prove out the existence of God, but the bad things don't decrease the likelihood of his existence.
Of all of the assertions against faith, this is probably the strongest. There are really to ways to deal with the issue, one theological and one more emotional. The theological answer tells us that because of our sin, we have chosen to live in a world where there is suffering. If humanity as a race chose God over sin, then there would be no death, sickness, poverty, etc. Adam chose sin in the garden and so humanity fell (as did creation), and we have followed in his footsteps. For the Christian, the hope is that one day creation will be restored to a pure state and we will be made free of sickness, death, and sin.

The theological answer is kind of cold, though, and while I believe it, it is hard to gain real, personal comfort from that. The emotional answer has a lot more power for those who suffer, at least for Christians. I don’t know if it is unique to Christianity, but one of the defining characteristics is that God came to earth and met us in our pain, allowing Himself to suffer one of the most gruesome physical deaths a person can experience. On top of that, He bore the spiritual and emotional penalty of humanities sins. So while it might be difficult to make sense of pain and suffering emotionally, we know that we worship a God who has not sat above and watched from a distance- He has come near and experienced the same suffering that we have. The great symbol of Christianity is the cross, which reminds us that God does not tell us to try and ignore suffering, but to endure it for a greater cause.

I’ll admit that it has not been easy for either Angel or I through this. Yet the more physical pain she’s experienced (and the more emotional pain we’ve both experienced), it has driven home to us that the only hope we really have is in Christ and that one day all will be restored. We know there is purpose in all of this, and so we struggle on even when it hurts, but always coming out stronger than when we began.

You may recall that we ended up naming our band “Steady On”, and now you know why. Most of our songs are written from the perspective of our personal struggles and how God has revealed himself to us through them. We seek to use our music to encourage other believers to walk consistently even during trials and failures. I can personally attest that I have felt and known God more closely in the painful moments than I have in the joyful ones.
_________________________
-Jeff
Rome did not create a great empire by having meetings; they did it by killing all those who opposed them.

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#253113 - 06/04/2005 01:01 Re: Here I go again [Re: JeffS]
tfabris
carpal tunnel

Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31600
Loc: Seattle, WA
Quote:
It did turn out well, and they think they've fixed the problem. We'll see.

Does that mean that they believe she'll be freed of the constant pain? That would be wonderful.
_________________________
Tony Fabris

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#253114 - 06/04/2005 01:19 Re: Here I go again [Re: tfabris]
JeffS
carpal tunnel

Registered: 14/01/2002
Posts: 2858
Loc: Atlanta, GA
Quote:
Does that mean that they believe she'll be freed of the constant pain?
No. Sorry, I thought I'd explained what this was for.

A couple of months ago she had a stimulator implanted in her body that tricks the brain into ignoring the pain. Because the source of the pain is nerve damage, this is OK as the pain the body is alterting her to is pain we know about. But the stimulator only handles the chronic pain- not other pains like what you get when you bend over. So it is a partial solution that has allowed her to cut down on her drug intake by about half, which is a good thing.

Unfortunately, the stimulator begain cutting out at random moments, which made it worse to have it than not because she'd just be crusing along and then she'd feel PAIN. Very jolting. So that was the problem they believe they fixed.
_________________________
-Jeff
Rome did not create a great empire by having meetings; they did it by killing all those who opposed them.

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#253115 - 06/04/2005 12:50 Re: Here I go again [Re: JeffS]
tfabris
carpal tunnel

Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31600
Loc: Seattle, WA
Well, at least it's something. Glad they got it fixed.
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Tony Fabris

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#253116 - 06/04/2005 13:18 Re: Here I go again [Re: JeffS]
wfaulk
carpal tunnel

Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
Of course, all that just leads to the question of why not shoot yourself in the head the first chance you get, end all the suffering, and go live with God? Or, if you're going to make an argument about suicide, just live your life at a level of extreme risk helping everyone you can, and die trying to save a Tutsi from an extermination raid.
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Bitt Faulk

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#253117 - 06/04/2005 13:28 Re: Here I go again [Re: wfaulk]
JeffS
carpal tunnel

Registered: 14/01/2002
Posts: 2858
Loc: Atlanta, GA
Quote:
Of course, all that just leads to the question of why not shoot yourself in the head the first chance you get, end all the suffering, and go live with God? Or, if you're going to make an argument about suicide, just live your life at a level of extreme risk helping everyone you can, and die trying to save a Tutsi from an extermination raid.
Well, scripture does tell us that life is to be valued. God put us here for a purpose, and if we were to all check out we'd not be participating in His plan as He intends. Remember that death is a result of sin, not the intended order of things. Many Christians forget this and make the mistake of embracing death. So you hear people at funerals say things like "don't mourn- the person is with the Lord now", which is unfortunate. While it is true that the person is now with Jesus in heaven, that doesn't mean we don't feel the pain of death our shouldn't mourn. That knowledge might bring us comfort, but ultimatly that separation is unnatural for how God initially created us.

So to answer your question, while we live in a fallen world where death is an unfortunate reality, we do not embrace it or seek it. Rather we struggle against it as we do sickeness and other fallen aspects of creation.
_________________________
-Jeff
Rome did not create a great empire by having meetings; they did it by killing all those who opposed them.

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#253118 - 06/04/2005 15:10 Re: Here I go again [Re: JeffS]
wfaulk
carpal tunnel

Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
So, essentially, you've gotta play by the rules.
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Bitt Faulk

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