#303652 - 11/11/2007 13:50
Re: HDTV Advice
[Re: Attack]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 29/08/2000
Posts: 14497
Loc: Canada
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Quote:
Quote:
The thing I don't understand is: why would this happen at all? If anything, the output of the PC should be more certain than any other device I plug into the TV. I have it set to the exact native resolution of the TV, and it's a digital signal, so why on earth would there be anything other than a 1:1 mapping?
There's also a bit of a weird look to stuff on the screen, like the mouse has an odd, light, 1-pixel border around it.
*edit*
Oh, and I was at least able to get a satisfactory result by changing the resolution to something like 1776x1008, but this just makes me wonder that question more...
What make / model TV do you have? Read the threads about your TV on AVSForum as someone may have posted the service codes to adjust the overscan.
This wiki about overscan should help explain it.
Anandtech also has info about the overscan correction.
Nothing at either of the two links given above actually addresses the question. There's lots of discussion there about TV signals and analogue sets/sources, but nothing about overscan when the devices and connections are purely digital.
Cheers
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#303653 - 11/11/2007 17:37
Re: HDTV Advice
[Re: Dignan]
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Registered: 23/01/2002
Posts: 506
Loc: The Great Pacific NorthWest
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Here’s a quote from Cnet Editors review of this TV: “PC performance: We also tested the Sony's VGA input and the results were disappointing. We set our PC to 1,920x1,080 and unlike the 60A2000 we reviewed, the R60XBR2 did display an image--but it was far from ideal. We could find no way to get the image to fill the screen completely; there was a black border about 8-inches wide on all sides, which is unacceptable. We were able to reduce interference by playing with the pitch and phase controls, but never completely eliminate it. The Sony fared much better as a PC monitor when connected via HDMI. It filled the screen and resolved every line of a 1,920x1,080 source, according to DisplayMate, and text was relatively crisp. The image was overscanned significantly, however, so the task bar at the bottom of our Windows XP desktop, for example, was completely obscured along with one column of icons on the right side. According to DisplayMate, overscan measured 3 percent on the top and bottom and 2.5 percent on the sides--and we couldn't do anything with the Sony's controls to improve that. Of course, depending on the drivers in your video card, you should be able to correct the overscan at the expense of re-scaling the image.” http://reviews.cnet.com/projection-tvs/sony-kds-r60xbr2/4505-6484_7-31901228.htmlOne of the reasons for the overscan is that this is a RP set. Because this set displays an image that is reflected off of a mirror Sony, and all manufacturers that make this kind of set, design them with overscan. This give them some leeway when it comes to the final mechanical calibration of the set. You can imagine how difficult it would be to build these sets with zero overscan and perfect alignment. In other words, the light engine is producing an image that is 1920X1080 but a portion of this image is outside of the viewing area of your screen. As this is a Sony RP set I would be very surprised of you could not find the solution to the overscan issue. You may be able to display an acceptable picture by just using Powerstrip and using a non-standard resolution.
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#303654 - 11/11/2007 19:37
Re: HDTV Advice
[Re: Neutrino]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 29/08/2000
Posts: 14497
Loc: Canada
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MMmm... sounds like more good reasons to never purchase Sony products new.
Cheers
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#303655 - 11/11/2007 19:40
Re: HDTV Advice
[Re: mlord]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 17/01/2002
Posts: 3996
Loc: Manchester UK
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Quote:
MMmm... sounds like more good reasons to never purchase Sony products new.
More like a good reason never to buy an RP set.
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Andy M
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#303656 - 11/11/2007 20:24
Re: HDTV Advice
[Re: andym]
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addict
Registered: 23/01/2002
Posts: 506
Loc: The Great Pacific NorthWest
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For most people having 3% of overscan will never be noticed. I would guess that the percentage of buyers that understand 1:1 pixel mapping is relatively small. I own a Sony RP LCD TV and it has worked well since I bought it in November of 2003. Of course it's a 42" set and I paid more for it then you would this 60" now AND mine is not the top of the line! Again, with a little research and work I'm confident the pixel mapping can be resolved. Think of it like this, you will be seriously jazzed when you get it figured out! 
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#303657 - 11/11/2007 22:55
Re: HDTV Advice
[Re: Neutrino]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/03/2000
Posts: 12345
Loc: Sterling, VA
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Quote:
One of the reasons for the overscan is that this is a RP set. Because this set displays an image that is reflected off of a mirror Sony, and all manufacturers that make this kind of set, design them with overscan. This give them some leeway when it comes to the final mechanical calibration of the set. You can imagine how difficult it would be to build these sets with zero overscan and perfect alignment. In other words, the light engine is producing an image that is 1920X1080 but a portion of this image is outside of the viewing area of your screen.
As this is a Sony RP set I would be very surprised of you could not find the solution to the overscan issue. You may be able to display an acceptable picture by just using Powerstrip and using a non-standard resolution.
I guess I'm mostly surprised that there's so much overscan. I'd seen the CNet review, but I wasn't shocked until I saw it myself. For example, almost the entire task bar is gone, and this is mirrored on the top edge of the screen. That means it's overscanning by about 50 to 60 pixels.
I'm sure I'll be able to make it look okay by using a non-standard resolution, but that means all content will be converted, even 1080 content, which I should be getting full resolution for.
I'll keep looking in the Sony menus for an option to adjust the display...
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Matt
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#303658 - 11/11/2007 23:39
Re: HDTV Advice
[Re: Dignan]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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I'm sure that when you're watching TV, it's also losing the same number of pixels to overscan.
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Bitt Faulk
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#303659 - 12/11/2007 02:13
Re: HDTV Advice
[Re: Dignan]
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addict
Registered: 23/01/2002
Posts: 506
Loc: The Great Pacific NorthWest
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Not sure what you want to do with the PC but on the Sony I have the changes that I made in the service menus effected only the DVI input that I was using. Every input on the set had their own set of variables. It might be the same for your set. If this is the case and your are using seperate inputs for the PC and other HDMI devices than the changes you make for the PC would only effect it.
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#303661 - 12/11/2007 05:01
Re: HDTV Advice
[Re: Dignan]
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addict
Registered: 23/01/2002
Posts: 506
Loc: The Great Pacific NorthWest
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Absolutely Matt, there is a service menu that is not generally available to the end user unless you know the special series of key strokes that are required to make it accessible. This is where all of the factory setup parameters are stored. There are a large number of variables here that control all sorts of things within your set. I don’t remember what the keystrokes are that will get you in there but if you go to the www.avsforum.com web site I think you’ll find everything you need. One of the pioneers of figuring this out on the Sony RP LCD was a guy known as UMR. If you go there and search for posts by him it will probably get you started in the right direction. Just make sure you have read enough to understand what you are doing before you get started as there are variables in here that if not set correctly can cause you much grief. Just did a little searching in the AVS forum. It may be that UMR's work predates your set. I did find this: Quote: Originally Posted by HappyFunBoater ??? Are you sure about this? This topic has been discussed extensively in this forum and the answer has always been that it's an issue with the optics and there is absolutely no way to fix the amount of overscan we're talking about within the service menu. I could be remembering wrong, but I thought reputable calibrators like UMR agreed that it wasn't fixable. Can you point us at the service menu setting that will allow us to fix overscan? And does it work on a single input? In other words, if I fix the overscan on my computer input, will it cause underscan on my other inputs. OK, this is what I have learned so far by reading hundreds of pages and spending many hours in the service menu of my 60XBR2. There seems to be at least 2 kinds of overscan. The first is physical. There are some pixels being hidden behind the bezel (the frame around the image). Some say 2 to 3%. Unless you rip it off or change the housing there is nothing you can do about it. If that is the overscan you are talking about then, no there is not much you can do about it. However... The theory which is mine and subject to change as I learn more or others prove me wrong ... All signals that appear on the screen of an XBR2 pass through the scaler. This makes perfect 1:1 pixel mapping extremely hard and nearly impossible to achieve. There, I said it. Now, there is a place in the service menu where you can change the horizontal and vertical scale factor. It is know as HOVERSCN and VOVERSCAN. WEM SERVICE 070 000 HOVERSCAN 001 VOVERSCAN Warning: The SM is a dangerous place. Be careful what you change and please write down original values before changing. These two parameters are on a per resolution bases. Meaning that when you change them while viewing a 1080i signal, any and all inputs using a 1080i signal will also change. This is valid for all inputs except the VGA input. I can't seem to activate the SM in the VGA input. Maybe someone knows how to do that. __________________ -Tony " I found it here: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=730418&highlight=service+menu&page=225
Edited by Neutrino (12/11/2007 05:19)
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#303662 - 12/11/2007 06:44
Re: HDTV Advice
[Re: Neutrino]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 10/06/1999
Posts: 5916
Loc: Wivenhoe, Essex, UK
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Quote:
Warning: The SM is a dangerous place. Be careful what you change and please write down original values before changing.
I think that deserves to be repeated, in bold. You really can make a mess in TV service menus and it can be very hard to undo if you haven't correctly noted down all the original values. In the case of my Toshiba there isn't any "reset to how it shipped" option either...
The first time I used the SM on my Toshiba I clearly wrote down a wrong value somewhere. It took me weeks of fiddling to get it back to a decent state.
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#303663 - 12/11/2007 13:28
Re: HDTV Advice
[Re: andy]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/03/2000
Posts: 12345
Loc: Sterling, VA
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Quote:
Quote:
Warning: The SM is a dangerous place. Be careful what you change and please write down original values before changing.
I think that deserves to be repeated, in bold. You really can make a mess in TV service menus and it can be very hard to undo if you haven't correctly noted down all the original values. In the case of my Toshiba there isn't any "reset to how it shipped" option either...
The first time I used the SM on my Toshiba I clearly wrote down a wrong value somewhere. It took me weeks of fiddling to get it back to a decent state.
Yeah, due to this I don't think I'll be attempting it. Thanks for your work though, Neutrino, I appreciate it. Besides, it sounds like the only adjustments that can be made are ones that are scaling the image differently, so I won't be getting 1:1 anyway. I might as well stick with the odd resolution that's working for me and try to live with that. It does look almost as good as I could ask for.
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Matt
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#303664 - 12/11/2007 14:00
Re: HDTV Advice
[Re: mlord]
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addict
Registered: 01/03/2002
Posts: 599
Loc: Florida
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
The thing I don't understand is: why would this happen at all? If anything, the output of the PC should be more certain than any other device I plug into the TV. I have it set to the exact native resolution of the TV, and it's a digital signal, so why on earth would there be anything other than a 1:1 mapping?
There's also a bit of a weird look to stuff on the screen, like the mouse has an odd, light, 1-pixel border around it.
*edit*
Oh, and I was at least able to get a satisfactory result by changing the resolution to something like 1776x1008, but this just makes me wonder that question more...
What make / model TV do you have? Read the threads about your TV on AVSForum as someone may have posted the service codes to adjust the overscan.
This wiki about overscan should help explain it.
Anandtech also has info about the overscan correction.
Nothing at either of the two links given above actually addresses the question. There's lots of discussion there about TV signals and analogue sets/sources, but nothing about overscan when the devices and connections are purely digital.
Cheers
I think the section "Moden Sets" on the wiki explains why they still do overscan. I'm sure we will see an option in the menus to enable / disable the overscan on future sets as more people connect PC type devices to the TV.
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Chad
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#303665 - 12/11/2007 19:36
Re: HDTV Advice
[Re: Dignan]
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addict
Registered: 23/01/2002
Posts: 506
Loc: The Great Pacific NorthWest
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That makes sense to me and you're welcome!
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#303666 - 15/11/2007 03:32
Re: HDTV Advice
[Re: tonyc]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/03/2000
Posts: 12345
Loc: Sterling, VA
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Sorry to submit this article to the discussion so late, but I'm just now getting caught up on the 783 Engadget posts I've missed. Anyway, as a FIOS customer, I was extremely happy to hear about their plans to upgrade to 150 HD channels. The link to the article about their current limitations is interesting as well. I had wondered what kind of limitations the technology had. It sounds like they're fixing them, though.
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Matt
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#303667 - 15/11/2007 19:36
Re: HDTV Advice
[Re: tonyc]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 27/06/1999
Posts: 7058
Loc: Pittsburgh, PA
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Well, I close on the house tomorrow (yay!) and once I'm moved in, I'll be going to local stores to take a look at some TVs. Based purely on reviews, owner experiences, specs, and price, the Sony KDS-60A3000 is the leader right now. I've basically ruled out flat panels because 50" isn't enough for the room, and 60" flat panel LCDs and plasmas are out of my reach price-wise, leaving rear-projection as the only option. My initial instinct among the RPs was the Samsung LED-based DLP models, but scouring the forums, people are having a lot of first-gen type problems with them, more so than other Samsung models with bulbs. I'll definitely take a look at the Samsung DLP sets in person before making my decision, though.
Getting a new TV means it's also time to upgrade my home theater system. Probably going with an Onkyo TX-SR605 receiver with the Onkyo SKS-HT540 7.1 speaker package. I'll try to give this combo an in-store listen if possible because it gets excellent ratings for movie quality, but average ratings for music. If I don't like the sound, I guess I'll buy speakers piecemeal.
I've also decided I'm not going to take the plunge on an HD-DVD or Blu-Ray player until the format war/pissing contest is over. I realize that feeding my 5 year old DVD player without progressive scan into this system is going to be like putting a Yugo engine in a Ferrari, but the few dual-format players that do exist are way too expensive, and I don't want to take a gamble on one format or another and get burned if I end up on the wrong side of the conflict.
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#303668 - 15/11/2007 20:03
Re: HDTV Advice
[Re: tonyc]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31604
Loc: Seattle, WA
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Quote:
I realize that feeding my 5 year old DVD player without progressive scan into this system is going to be like putting a Yugo engine in a Ferrari
I don't think so. I think regular DVDs look fantastic on big screens, and the difference between progressive and interlaced is negligible as long as the TV does halfway decent deinterlacing.
Provided, of course, that they are:
- Anamorphic widescreen movies
- Connected with component cables.
Given the above, I'm quite happy to wait out the HD-DVD format war.
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#303669 - 15/11/2007 20:25
Re: HDTV Advice
[Re: tonyc]
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addict
Registered: 18/02/2002
Posts: 658
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I've got the next model up, the TXSR674 and I've been very happy with it. It was my first real home audio receiver but I had no real problems setting it up. I don't very much about the unit you're getting but the 674 has two HDMI in ports and an HDMI out which has been pretty useful to me. I'd make sure the 605 has some sort of HDMI support. Speaker wise, I went with an Infinity 5.1 channel system. Its pretty much the perfect size for my room (~12x15) and with a good Dobly or DTS source, it sounds amazing.
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#303670 - 15/11/2007 20:32
Re: HDTV Advice
[Re: tonyc]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 29/08/2000
Posts: 14497
Loc: Canada
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Quote:
I've also decided I'm not going to take the plunge on an HD-DVD or Blu-Ray player until the format war/pissing contest is over. I realize that feeding my 5 year old DVD player without progressive scan into this system is going to be like putting a Yugo engine in a Ferrari,
A note about DVD players: I have a nice $25 one here that says "progressive scan" on the front. The output of this model is only 480p, which is noticeably jagged on my 37" 1366x768 LCD television.
The exact same discs look much smoother (like, perfect!) when played from my MythTV box to that exact same screen, probably because of the 720p+ output from the Myth box.
So a DVD player with 720p output should do a similar job, and produce a MUCH better image (noticeably better) than an older 480p one, even without jumping into the roulette game of HD DVD standards.
Cheers
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#303671 - 15/11/2007 20:53
Re: HDTV Advice
[Re: mlord]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31604
Loc: Seattle, WA
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Insert discussion about why some DVD players bearing the name "Progressive Scan" look like crap here. (Scroll down to near the bottom to see specific known bugs in some deinterlacers).
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#303672 - 15/11/2007 21:21
Re: HDTV Advice
[Re: visuvius]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/03/2000
Posts: 12345
Loc: Sterling, VA
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Quote:
I'd make sure the 605 has some sort of HDMI support.
Agreed! It looks like the 605 does have HDMI inputs, and even conversion to HDMI! Good choice! The next receiver I get will have conversion to HDMI, so I can just leave my TV on one input out of convenience.
I'm currently not happy at all with my Sony receiver. They seem to be the last company to tie digital audio ports to specific components. For example: I have an optical and coax input that are both tied to the DVD player, so when I'm using one, the other is useless. The end result is that I have limited inputs for newer components. Most other decent receivers I've seen will let you assign your digital audio inputs, as well as your component and HDMI inputs. Not Sony, though. Not on any of their products, no matter how expensive.
Anyway, I like that TV. I think you made the right choice on rear projection. For the size/price ratio, it can't be beat. Besides, if you don't plan on having the home theater components hidden away, you'll probably be putting them in a stand that will take up the amount of depth of an RPTV. At least that's how I justified it
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Matt
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#303673 - 15/11/2007 21:22
Re: HDTV Advice
[Re: visuvius]
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old hand
Registered: 14/02/2002
Posts: 804
Loc: Salt Lake City, UT
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The SR605 is actually the lowest cost HDMI 1.3 receiver I've seen available.. (I've seen it for under $500 in B&M stores) So when he does make the move to HD DVD or BluRay he will be able to pass Dobly TrueHD or DTS-HD Master Audio directly over the HDMI, rather than using the analog 5.1 outputs from his disc player. Edit as I was a little slow: Yeah, the SR605 will upconvert from other sources to the HDMI output, but it will downconvert 1080i signals over component to 720p when output over HDMI. Check the CNET review for more.I picked up a Toshiba HD-A30 HD DVD player at the beginning of October, and love it. Looking back I kinda wished I just went for an A2, but I'm satisfied. Unfortunately the 2 lowest models of Toshiba HD DVD players don't have analog 5.1 outputs, so the only way to get Dolby TrueHD or DTS-HD Master Audio is over HDMI, which requires a HDMI 1.3 receiver. If you do have a HTPC you could always get a combo drive ( $299 @ newegg, but out of stock), but I hear the software is still young for Windows (especially with integrating it into a Media Center app). I haven't looked into getting it running under Linux.
Edited by Waterman981 (15/11/2007 21:42)
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#303674 - 15/11/2007 22:50
Re: HDTV Advice
[Re: tonyc]
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old hand
Registered: 14/02/2002
Posts: 804
Loc: Salt Lake City, UT
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Quote:
I'll have a better idea about my target screen size once I move into the new place, but the room is 24x12, so I'm thinking 50" might not be quite enough. In that case, plasmas are pretty much out of the question.
Ya wrote this a while ago, but just to give you an idea, my room is 12.5' wide, 24.5' in length. Here is a panorama of the setup I'm running. Like I mentioned before I got the Samsung 61" LED DLP (I'm curious as to what problems you've heard. I've only had mine since the end of September and have had no problems). The TV is 21" from the wall, but with the stand it looks fine. My couch is about 11' from the screen, which gives me just a tiny bit of darkness at the top. I really only notice it on full screen pictures with a white backdrop. I think my couch just sits a little low though, if my head is about 3" higher the picture is perfect.
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#040103696 on a shelf
Mk2a - 90 GB - Red - Illuminated buttons
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#303675 - 15/11/2007 23:08
Re: HDTV Advice
[Re: Waterman981]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/03/2000
Posts: 12345
Loc: Sterling, VA
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Quote:
I'll have a better idea about my target screen size once I move into the new place, but the room is 24x12, so I'm thinking 50" might not be quite enough. In that case, plasmas are pretty much out of the question.
My main room is 14'7''x19'10'', and 60" is definitely my minimum, especially given the high ceilings in my place. Which orientation will your setup be in? Mine is the opposite of Waterman's. I have the couch and TV against the long walls, so the TV is probably about 10'-12' from my eyes.
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#303676 - 16/11/2007 04:01
Re: HDTV Advice
[Re: Waterman981]
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addict
Registered: 23/01/2002
Posts: 506
Loc: The Great Pacific NorthWest
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It's really long but it may change your view on the need of HDMI 1.3 to enjoy lossless audio. http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=789994It's been a while since I looked at this thread. I just took a quick look at it and it appears it has devolved into a shouting match but there is still a lot of good info here. While I own a 1.3 compliant receiver none of the players I own pass lossless audio via bitstream. They all do the decoding internally passing it via multi channel PCM hence I do not use or need the decoders within the receiver to enjoy lossless audio. YMMV
Edited by Neutrino (16/11/2007 04:21)
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#303677 - 16/11/2007 13:22
Re: HDTV Advice
[Re: Dignan]
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addict
Registered: 23/09/2000
Posts: 498
Loc: Virginia, USA
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The next receiver I get will have conversion to HDMI, so I can just leave my TV on one input out of convenience.
A friend of mine warned me that this feature may not be so great in practice. He says the level differences between HDMI outputs on different devices mean he can't use the switching unless he wants to change his TV settings each time.
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#303678 - 16/11/2007 14:54
Re: HDTV Advice
[Re: Waterman981]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31604
Loc: Seattle, WA
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Quote:
Here is a panorama of the setup I'm running.
Hee! Serenity!
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#303680 - 16/11/2007 15:31
Re: HDTV Advice
[Re: Neutrino]
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old hand
Registered: 14/02/2002
Posts: 804
Loc: Salt Lake City, UT
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Quote:
It's really long but it may change your view on the need of HDMI 1.3 to enjoy lossless audio.
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=789994
Wow, I just skimmed the first post quickly, but I'll definitely have to take a closer read. AVSForum is so huge I usually avoid it unless I have a specific problem I'm trying to fix. My current receiver doesn't have HDMI (or analog 5.1 inputs) at all right now so I might as well get one that is 1.3 while I'm replacing it.
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#040103696 on a shelf
Mk2a - 90 GB - Red - Illuminated buttons
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#303681 - 21/11/2007 14:19
Re: HDTV Advice
[Re: tonyc]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 27/06/1999
Posts: 7058
Loc: Pittsburgh, PA
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Thanks for all the advice, folks. As expected, I closed on my house on Friday, and moved in this weekend (where "moved in" means "everything I own is in the garage.") I was going to hold off on buying a TV until after Black Friday to see if there were any deals, but having scanned the Black Friday circulars from the major electronics retailers, I didn't see any that jumped out at me. There are going to be a couple of Aquos deals (I think a 46" Aquos is going to be $999 at Sears) but the pickins among larger sets look pretty slim unless there are "secret sales." With this in mind, I scanned the deal forums today and lo and behold, there's a great deal on the KDS-60A3000 at Fry's/Outpost: http://shop1.outpost.com/product/5384018?site=sr:SEARCH:MAIN_RSLT_PG$1599 plus shipping (around $90) from a reputable seller seemed like a great deal to me, so I pulled the trigger. I've seen the set in person at Circuit City, and thought it wasn't a great environment, I did find the picture to be very crisp. If it's anything close to or better than my Dad's 60" Sony (I think it's a KDS-60XBR2) I'll be thrilled to get it at this price. Now I just gotta order a nice stand for it. Anyone have any stands they recommend for a 60"ish projection TV? The BellO stands seem popular and look pretty nice, but they're a bit pricey.
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