except (generally) insofar as groups of people adopt a divine sponsor for their morals and then they can become frighteningly absolute.

Almost right, but not quite. IF (and it's a big "if" to an atheist- well actually a “not”- but I digress) there is such thing as moral absolutes then there's only one set that's right. Simply saying "I believe God thinks . . . " doesn't make it true. But it also doesn't make it false either. If people are going to appeal to a higher power, they should not assume that every one else should accept their words simply because they attach the word “God.” My moral code is completely defined by my religious beliefs, but it can also be discussed intelligently and flows from some very solid premises. What is key is that my viewpoint is open to being questioned, and I don’t expect everyone to hold it. That doesn’t make it relative, though: I believe I’m right, and that belief is on dependent on what you believe. And if there IS absolute truth, it IS right whether either of us agree with it or not.


Jim, the rest of this isn’t aimed at you (not that the previous stuff was- however that was at least based on one of your comments). It’s just some thoughts about moral relativity and objective truth.

I think a large problem with moral relativism is that it treats all moral codes equally, which on the face of it isn't true (unless moral's are simply illusions, in which case all moral codes are equally bankrupt). I have to say, if I were and atheist (and I don't say any of this to put anyone down), I think I'd probably have to reject the notion of morals all together as empty and meaningless. Any discussion of right vs. wrong would be moot as there would be no meaningful outcome of any action. What I think I would do is simply whatever felt right, whether it was consistent with my previous actions or not. I know that's a pretty bleak picture and maybe I'd see things differently on "the other side," but from this vantage point (of believing in absolute truth) that's how it all appears to me.

The strange thing to me is that I really see two options: reject morals as illusory, or seek the one objective truth. What I can’t understand is the idea (the very popular one) that people hold of: “there are many different valid moral codes defined by the individuals who hold them”. That to me is just a clever restating the first option in a way that sounds a little more comfortable. People have these feelings that they call “morals” so they have something to hold onto and believe there is such a thing as “good”, but beyond providing a level of comfort these “morals” don’t do much as they can’t even be valued against other morals (since they’re all equal).

Ok, I’ll stop rambling for the moment. I need to get some work done!