Originally Posted By: canuckInOR
Originally Posted By: tonyc
Originally Posted By: TigerJimmy
PS: the fact that it's close to a Republican bill means nothing to me as the Republicans have just as bad a track record on liberty.

"Liberty" is such an abstract and loaded word that it's really not productive to debate how much "liberty" we want, or who's got a good track record on "liberty." Absent any context or clarification, it's little more than a rah-rah buzzword to rile up constituents for or against something you don't like. We all want it in the abstract, but without specifying where to draw the boxes around your liberty to swing your fist and my liberty to live without having my face punched, we're really not getting anywhere.

That's pretty well said.

You know what would mean "liberty" for me? A single-payer health system, administered by the government. I'd have the liberty to change jobs, without worrying about losing/downgrading my health care. I'd have liberty from worrying about where the hell I'm going to get the funds to pay an additional $500+ bill every month, after losing my job. I'd have the liberty to go to any doctor I want, instead of being artificially restricted to whoever my insurer dictates (yay, Kaiser HMO!). I'd have the liberty to go to the closest, least-busy hospital, when I need to. I'd have the liberty to get out-of-state medical care when I'm traveling, without worrying about how much is covered by insurance.

Having lived on both sides of the US/Canada border, it's the Canadian system (even with all its imperfections) that's more liberating, by far. Even though it's government administered. (The higher taxes thing is a red-herring -- by the time you pay for health insurance post-taxes, the difference is negligible.)


You mean it would provide you, personally, with more of what you call "liberty". You aren't considering that someone has to pay that $500. That there is no such thing as a free lunch. If you aren't paying for services (labor) that you receive, someone else is. That doesn't seem to matter to you as long as that someone isn't you. That is very far from the philosophical principle of liberty. In fact, it is the complete opposite, and more correctly referred to as "selfishness" or simply "stealing."