They're both over and underrated as well. But generally speaking, to see the best software you'll usually look to third parties. As far as hardware goes, they're usually the best of the common crowd, but they could be better. Design is all a compromise anyway, so I suppose you can never have a pinnacle, even if looking at a specific point in time.

With regards to the two comments, they have the benchmark retail product. It doesn't mean they have created the ultimate design nor function in every category for that product. They're also where the market is looking and what the market is targeting. The benchmark. I happen to think a lot of the platform can be better designed and implemented. I don't think anyone else will solve all the issues before (or instead of) Apple however. And even if they had a single product that was the absolute most perfect creation that would never be improved, that still wouldn't make the company nor everything else they do "all that."

"All that" = Always tops, without question or fail. Infallible. Always right. The only way. Can't be improved. etc..

Yeah, I don't agree with "all that."